Bob Levey - Getty Images
10 months ago: HOUSTON - JULY 19: Pitcher Jordan Zimmermann #27 of the Washington Nationals throws against the Houston Astros in the first inning at Minute Maid Park on July 19, 2011 in Houston, Texas. (Photo by Bob Levey/Getty Images)
With a mix of anger and disappointment in his voice, Washington Nationals' manager Davey Johnson spoke to the media after a 7-6 road loss to the Houston Astros about a 2-2 slider to Clint Barmes in the fourth inning that Nats' right-hander Jordan Zimmermann had left up in the zone. First base was open after the Nats' 25-year-old '07 2nd Round pick had given up a one-out single by Carlos Lee and a double by Astros' infielder Chris Johnson. "The thing that bothered me the most that whole ballgame," Johnson explained, "I'm not one, over my whole career with good young pitchers, good arms, and I have a couple guys in scoring position and I've got a base open, if he gets ahead of the guy, I don't expect him to make bad pitches.
"I expect that the hitter's got to hit a pitch off the plate and a nasty pitch and [Zimmermann] hung a slider right down the middle, it was flat, and drove in a run and then the squeeze [he] didn't cover first." Zimmermann was coming off a nine-day rest following the All-Star Break as the Nats tried to figure out just how they'd handle the right-hander as he approached the innings limit imposed on him in his first full year back following Tommy John surgery. It wasn't just that one slider that got away from him. "I just didn't have a good feel for much of anything," the Nats' '07 2nd Round pick said after the game, "My slider was pretty terrible tonight and I had a rough time locating the fastball and when you have nights like that you're going to get hit around."

In the at bat after Barmes' run-scoring hit in the fourth, Astros' catcher Humberto Quintero bunted with one down and runners on first and third, getting the run in easily and beating Zimmermann to first base for an RBI bunt single. More than the momentary lapse of concentration on the bunt it was the pitch to Barmes that bothered the Nats' skipper. "Those things upset me," the Nats' Skipper said, "I thought he battled and maybe he didn't have his best stuff, but the one thing, when you've got two strikes on a hitter, basically you just don't give him a cookie. There's a lot of times during the course of a year where I'll have situations in the middle of the lineup where I definitely don't want to give in and give a really good hitter a pitch to hit."
"Any other situation, with the catcher coming up," Johnson continued, "the 7th hole hitter hitting .250, if he gets ahead of him, I'm willing to make a good pitch and get him out and if he doesn't I'll walk him and try for the double play, but then you have to give in to the hitter and he needs to learn how to do that." Zimmermann, though disappointed he hadn't been able to get a win when his team scored six runs, said he had to get past it. "I've got to just get my work in the next four or five days," Zimmermann told reporters, "and be ready to go next time I step on the mound."
Zimmermann wouldn't pitch again for six days when he have up eight hits, two home runs and six runs total in an 11-2 loss to the Florida Marlins. Though he'd pitched on longer-than-usual rest in each of his first two starts coming out of the All-Star Break, (once because of the Break and once because of a day off after a road trip) the Nationals had decided before then that he would pitch on regular rest for the remainder of his available innings.
Going into the All-Star Break, Davey Johnson had talked to reporters about the Nats' plans for Zimmermann in the second half of the season, expressing the feeling that he wasn't sure he was happy about what he'd been told. "[Pitching coach Steve] McCatty's got a plan for [Zimmermann]," Johnson said, "to kind of stretch him out that will be good for him, and not as bad for the team, trying to get him at least to where we can expand the roster.
"I've heard the plan and I'm not that comfortable with it," Johnson said at the time, "so we'll have the break to discuss that formula. I'm not quite set on how that goes down. I'll probably need some medical opinions and all this other stuff." Asked what in particular made him uncomfortable, the Nats' Manager explained, "If there's off days and I don't need another starter, then I can kinda understand, but if I've got to piece another starter in there to push him back further to get him to the expanded roster, I haven't looked at that, but that would be an issue with me."
"He's obviously pitched a lot better than a fifth starter," Johnson said. "So, if we're trying to win... I mean, but don't get me started on that whole scenario, but you can figure it out. I don't know if this is a medical decision. That he needs extra rest, or if we're going to shut him down at 160.0 innings, is it better to be regular and then shut [down]? So, there's all kinds of things, thought processes that [go] into it. It's probably made above me by smart doctors, but from a baseball standpoint, I want to win. I'm thinking of winning."
"You do everything that you can for the individual, but not so much that it hurts the team. So, I mean, we haven't had all those discussions, but I know that that's what they think is best for [Zimmermann], but I haven't put my two cents in yet." Before the Nationals returned from the All-Star Break they announced their decision for how they'd deal with Zimmermann's approaching limits.
"Zimmermann will continue to go on his regular rotation until he reaches 160 innings, according to manager Davey Johnson," MLB.com's Bill Ladson wrote in mid-July in an article entitled, "Zimmermann to remain on regular rotation." Johnson was quoted in the article saying, "'I wasn't sure that was the best way to finish out this year. I think regular work, regular side throwing until he runs out of innings, and then let him rest.'" Pitching on regular rest after the first two starts in which he gave up 15 hits and 12 ER in 11.2 IP, Zimmermann gave up 37 hits and 11 earned runs in his last six starts and 34.2 IP, over which he walked 10 (2.59 BB/9) and struck out 32 (8.31 K/9). Zimmermann was shut down for the season after his August 28th start against Cincinatti.
Looking back on his season, the right-hander said that though it was tough to end his own season before the Nationals were done, "You can look at it both ways," Zimmermann said, "Yeah, of course I wanted to pitch the whole season and maybe skipping a start here and there during the season I could've been able to pitch a whole season, but we tried that a couple times, and it seemed like every time I either skipped a start or had a longer rest I didn't pitch very well, so I think they wanted to keep me on a five-day rotation, and when I was able to pitch every fifth day I seemed to do a lot better."
Having gotten through the first full-season back, Zimmermann, who got a foundation of innings in late in 2010 to set himself up for a full Spring Training to prepare for the 2011 season, is set to pitch without limits in 2012. "I would say next year he's capable of going 120 pitches and 200.0 innings," Davey Johnson told reporters at one point this season, looking forward to a time that he could run the right-hander out there with no restrictions, but as for what he'd accomplished in 2011, Johnson said, "You couldn't ask for anything more after what he's went through the last year." Stephen Strasburg, who's followed the same program more or less thus far will be on the same innings-limit next season, and the Nationals plan to shut him down when he reaches whatever total he's allotted.
"I'm going with the medical experts," the 68-year-old skipper said when he was asked about having to finish the season without Strasburg, "Whatever they think is the best thing to do." In spite of how impressed he was with the right-hander's surgically-repaired elbow, the manager will stick to the plan. "He's over the special treatment," Johnson said referring to the strict pitch counts Strasburg worked under as he rehabbed, "Now I would handle him just like any other pitcher on my staff and when we feel like the arm has had enough we'll shut him down, just like with [Zimmermann]."
0 recs | 37 comments
Guys like ...
… Strasburg and Zimmermann are long term assets, and need to be handled that way. They are key parts of a team strategy that is intended to produce competitive teams for the next 4 to 6 years (or more). Therefore you don’t burn them out for the sake of a single season.
Since the “4 to 6 competitive years” strategy is the holy grail, all major decisions need to be made in that context. In this approach, you don’t deduct from those years for an immediate (but shorter duration) return.
And of course we’ve been debating aplenty the impact of Prince Fielder’s body mass and contract terms on this strategy. All roads due indeed lead to Rome.
DaRube - January 11, 2012
absolutely
but I am not a believer in long-term strength. One full year is a major difference in arm strength than enough. It all comes down to offseason and midseason preparation. verducci created the increased innings phenomenon. but thats hardly scientific and here we are supporting it by limiting their innings.
They talk about “innings”. But we all know there is long-tossing, side-sessions, etc. All the act of throwing a baseball. Ligaments don’t respond to innings. Its all hypothesis.
Bsullivan - January 11, 2012
Thanks, Patrick
for reminding us of the tacky manner which DJ handled his disappointment with the performance of one of his player’s: by complaining about it through the media.
I had darn near forgotten and forgiven.
RobBobS - January 11, 2012
Amen
that was the day I started praying he wouldn’t be back the next season. One, don’t trash your players in minute detail in the media, especially when they are competitors at heart who just had a bad day and not a bad attitude. And two, use your brain before your mouth and realize that, hey, maybe 9 freaking days makes an impact.
Guess what nice, shiny round number Jordan’s ERA was if you just counted games pitched on standard rest? THREE point ZERO.
William.Hatheway - January 11, 2012
That’s interesting
I too was reading Patrick’s piece this morning and thinking… Oh this is the time that some people got upset because they thought Davey was throwing Zimmermann under the bus through the media. Like then, I disagree with this notion. At the time I thought Davey was just candidly discussing during a post game interview his thoughts on how to pitch (how ANY pitcher should pitch) in certain situations. I didn’t think then his comments were any big deal in terms of damaging the psyche of Zimmermann or their relationship and in retrospect and I still don’t. Come on, these are grown men and professionals, not little leaguers or even college players, and for that reason I don’t get the big hullabaloo. I suppose that if Davey’s remarks had an edge to them it might be a different story, but I don’t recall hearing that . I suppose the only way to know if there was any fallout or damage done would be to ask Davy and Zimmermann, but I suppose that would be to easy (or maybe easier said than done).
PerryMason - January 11, 2012
This was no philosophical discussion on pitching,
it was a direct criticism of Zimmermann’s pitch choice, and more obliquely, his pitch execution. “You don’t just give him a cookie”? What kind of nonsense is that? Did he suspect that JayZ was thinking in that situation “I’ve got him where I want him; now I’ll throw the most hittable pitch I can muster…” Did he damage Zimm’s psyche in the process? Who knows, that’s not the point. The point is that NOBODY would appreciate getting called out in public for an issue that can be handled just as well behind the scenes.
RobBobS - January 11, 2012
Fact is, if DJ had told the truth
he’dda said, “Boyz, JayZimm didn’t have it tonight, and the way they started knockin’ him around out there, I should’a hooked hizzass before that last bum even came to bat – but I didn’t, and there you have it. My bad.”
Whether or not that would’ve sounded any better to JZimm than the second-guessing BS we heard instead we cannot know – but at least it would have been honest.
Whupass - January 11, 2012
Baloney
JZimm: Boo hoo, Coach Davey, was on TV and said I threw the batter a cookie. He’s such a meanie! sniff, sniff.
If I had to bet, I’d say, far from being a problem, from then on everybody on the team got a laugh out of it and started saying things to Jzimm like “Cookie, Cookie, lend my your comb”.
PerryMason - January 11, 2012
It is what it is.
People respond to different criticism. Some people may have an opinion about where and how the criticism came about, but it all depends on what JZimmnn felt. If he doesn’t are, no should anyone else.
Either way, Davey’s point is that you get ahead in a count to a bad player with an empty base, you make sure that pitch is off the plate and try and get a strike out. So two problems there, One, that there was a base empty, so you can pitch around the guy a bit. and 2, you are ahead in the count and don’t want to throw a hittable pitch at ALL.
From day one in our development, in 0-2 or 1-2 counts, you make the guy chase. Don’t throw a strike.
This all part of the development of Zimmermann, and Davey has a right to let him know that. Its good to know that they are getting this kind of criticism so that the next time it happens JZimm is coming with the good stuff.
Bsullivan - January 11, 2012
Everyone talks about the obvious need to "waste" a pitch in this situation
My point is if you don’t occasionally throw strikes in that situation, you will never get batters to swing in that situation, in which case you truly are “wasting” a pitch, using up some energy and only accomplishing a more favorable hitter’s count. As to whether he should have hung a pitch, of course the answer is no, but then again he clearly wasn’t TRYING to hang a pitch. It just happened. These things happen to the best of pitchers.
RobBobS - January 11, 2012
I thought the topic was the appropriateness of Davey’s remarks, not whether or not the pitch selection was appropriate…
PerryMason - January 11, 2012
There's a separate subtext going on here.
Anyway, I DO enjoy a hearty philosophical discussion with no clearly obvious correct answers. (*)
Maybe one of the reasons I feel the way I do (about the manager calling out his player in public) is that it happens so rarely, that whenever it does occur it is breathtaking. Nearly always, these sorts of things are handled behind the scenes, and in the cases in which the “managing” is taking place through the media, that action itself usually becomes the story. The media almost always runs to the player and informs him of the call-out job by his manager, and said player is expected to (hoped to) respond with indignation, which is followed by news stories talking about the rift that threatens to tear the team apart, etc. Note my inherent bias against the state of journalism in this regard.
(*) Except mine, of course.
RobBobS - January 11, 2012
: )
PerryMason - January 11, 2012
The pitch selection was appropriate
His performance was not. That was Davey’s problem. I have no problem with people being called out. Occasionally people need a kick in the butt to respond.
Bsullivan - January 11, 2012
And it isn't wasting a pitch
its not hanging a breaking ball down the middle.
Bsullivan - January 11, 2012
Once again
Zimmermann did not choose to hang a breaking ball down the middle. He opted to try to get the out by throwing what is usually his best pitch (according to FanGraphs, it’s not even close: he lives by the slider).
RobBobS - January 11, 2012
there is a whole other direction that this discussion could take…
and that is that Zimm has shown a tendency to lose concentration and (as in the case at hand) not make the (bad) pitch that he needs to make.
I remember Charlie Manuel making a similar comment about Zimmermann during an interview before or after a Nats game… his comment wasn’t a so much a negative comment about how Zimm’s ability as it was a comment about he (or any young talented pitcher) still has things to learn or a maturation process to go through before he reaches his potential to become an elite pitcher.
PerryMason - January 11, 2012
Dude,
when was the last time your manager called you out in public for a mistake you made?
RobBobS - January 11, 2012
Irrelevant
PerryMason - January 11, 2012
Particularly irrelevant
Considering the age of blogs, tweets, incessant commentary AND the fact that most of us, as I said in my horribly misplaced comment (feel free to brutalize me for it), work privately. I don’t have anyone but other members of my team perusing my work. There’s no press conference called to discuss my grammar or diction.
anthonyfrancis - January 11, 2012
Thing about it is
even in a public setting, this sort of public call-out is rarely done, and usually when it is done it’s done with the notion of a manager covering his own backside.
RobBobS - January 11, 2012
And for the nth time + 1, Hamilton Burger slinks out of court
…a beaten man. Stand clear, fellers. Mase is on his game, and takin’ on all comers.
Whupass - January 11, 2012
Man don't you read Boz or do you just look at SBNation dude? He wrote that in black-and-white?
Johnson has always done that!! Always aired certain grievances in the media! Its from the Earl Weaver school of managing.
And yet it worked for him now didn’t it? And it worked for Weaver. But Johnson doesn’t just do it with players as Weaver did. He does it with the GM (see Johnson: manager of LA Dodgers) and even ownership (see Johnson: manager of pathetic Orioles). Who do you think tipped Boz off that ownership was balking at the Gio trade hmmm? Who? Its a good bet it was his old friend Davey that clued him in after he heard rumblings from other sources.
As someone told me with Giggleman. This is how we roll. Well like I said, we needed to get rid of Riggleman and that happened. Now we have a guy who knows how to win world series both as a player and manager.
This is how we roll to playoffs and hopefully world series’.
plebescite - January 11, 2012
I read it the same way Perry did
In a private professional setting, managers should take their employees aside to discuss flaws in execution. This situation isn’t private. Zimmermann made two bush league mistakes, everyone watching the game saw him make two bush league mistakes, he knows he did and Davey was specific. Zimmermann hung a slider he was trying to paint the corner with instead of wasting a pitch, got rattled and didn’t cover his base. I think it’s a tenuous conclusion at best that Davey had punishment on his mind discussing Zimmermann’s performance.
I think we have enough people in this town willing to sacrifice specificity for nicety.
anthonyfrancis - January 11, 2012
bah, bad reply. sorry for screwin up the thread.
anthonyfrancis - January 11, 2012
Wait for it
The screaming about innings limits should start up any moment now …
jbg2772 - January 11, 2012
Ken_Rosenthal:
Free-agent LH reliever Doug Slaten agrees to minor-league deal with #Pirates. #MLB
dc Roach - January 11, 2012
Poor Pittsburgh fans.
Haven’t they had a rough enough week already???
RobBobS - January 11, 2012
Bet's still on about Slaten if you want to reconsider
Smart management in Pittsburgh realizes that when a whopping 16.1 IP are accompanied by a BABIP nearly one-hundered points higher than career average and a HR/FB more than 50% higher than career average means nothing in terms of predicting future performance, but the unsurprisingly bad outcome (considering how statistically-significant his lack of luck was) last year makes his price a bargain.
So the offer stands… his BABIP in ’12 will be below .352 and the HR/FB below 10.5% (both figures the midpoint between ’11 and his career averages)for whatever amount you want to wager.
p.s. Jay-Z was a brilliant moniker, so thank you for that…
William.Hatheway - January 11, 2012
Whether the figures are near career-level performance or not
The problem with Slaten is that his career-level performance … is not very good. He had one good season (2007) and one decent season for the Nationals (2010), but really that’s about it. And when he’s bad, he’s turrible. A career ERA of 3.60, for a reliever, is not very good. His career WHIP (1.5) is just bad.
Don’t get me wrong – he’s worth a minor league deal. But it’s no great loss not offering him a minor league deal either. He’s utterly, completely replaceable, and for the Nationals going forward may well constitute addition by subtraction.
d_c_guy - January 11, 2012
Fair enough...
William.Hatheway - January 12, 2012
I had hopes he might wind up in the NLE
but Pittsburgh will do.
Whupass - January 12, 2012
Just posted an update on Sammy Solis' winter...
MASN’s Byron Kerr had some good-ish news this morning that’s linked/quoted in case you missed it.
NPUT…
Oh and did you hear what Jon Morosi said!! #stilltehfruntrunahs!
Patrick Reddington - January 11, 2012
;(
99% we don’t sign Fielder..WTH
Sportzxpert - January 11, 2012 via Android app
To quote Jim Bouton,
consider the source.
jbg2772 - January 11, 2012
Zimmermann capable of 200.0 innings in 2012
Sounds good.
200 Innings > Zimmermann’s 2011 Innings + Tom Milone’s 2011 MLB Innings + Brad Peacock’s 2011 MLB Innings
200 > 161 1/3 + 26 + 12
200> 199 1/3
HG_VA - January 11, 2012
JZimm: 200+ IP .325 or lower and 15+ wins in 2012
just you wait
Whupass - January 12, 2012
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